Air duct cleaning service providers may tell you that they need to apply chemical biocide to the inside of your ducts as a means to kill bacteria (germs) and fungi (mold) and prevent future biological growth. They may also propose the application of a "sealant" to prevent dust and dirt particles from being released into the air or to seal air leaks. You should fully understand the pros and cons of permitting application of chemical biocides or sealants. While the targeted use of chemical biocides and sealants may be appropriate under specific circumstances, research has not demonstrated their effectiveness in duct cleaning or their potential adverse health effects. No chemical biocides are currently registered by EPA for use in internally-insulated air duct systems (see Should chemical biocides be applied to the inside of air ducts?).

The heat pump gained popularity in the 1950s in Japan and the United States.[13] Heat pumps can extract heat from various sources, such as environmental air, exhaust air from a building, or from the ground. Heat pumps transfer heat from outside the structure into the air inside. Initially, heat pump HVAC systems were only used in moderate climates, but with improvements in low temperature operation and reduced loads due to more efficient homes, they are increasing in popularity in cooler climates.

Before we get to HVAC installation prices, we will first need to briefly discuss some terms, definitions, and factors that will affect how an honest HVAC installation company determines their prices. Notice that I said honest. Unfortunately, there are dishonest people out there. There always have been, there always will be, and there is a good chance that you had an experience with such a contractor, which is what drove you to read this article. I can’t teach you how to tell if someone is honest, but I can give you the knowledge to help you decide. Take a look at How to Choose an HVAC Contractor for tips on what to look for.

In addition, the black dust was found in most of the heat registers. He could rub it off on his fingers but did nothing but spray compressed air on it which didn’t make it disappear since it wasn’t loose. Also, in the register in the basement he described the black dust as being oily. The reality of that situation is that I had the AC on until the morning of the service and minutes after he snaked the hoses in my back door it started raining. The basement register had condensation from the humidity all over it. It was not oily but wet. He asked for an old towel and wiped it out. Never saw anything so black – because I never had to clean soot. That is what I have in my ducts. Soot from years of the old coal furnace.
You've probably noticed many appliances boasting an Energy Star Certification. What this means is that manufacturer voluntarily built the product to help reduce greenhouse gases and meet non-regulatory guidelines offered by the Environmental Protection Agency. To earn an Energy Star rating, a product or system must be tested by a third party that has been recognized by the EPA for meeting their testing qualifications.
R-22 Freon is being phased out & isn't readily available. So the service company may only purchase as needed and the lack of availability would make their cost high. But, as long as they can get it, whatever the cost, unfortunately, is less expensive than replacing the A/C. Which will be the case eventually since it's no longer manufactured or sooner as in my case with a not so old a/c that sprang a leak, that would have been just a repair, but since it uses R-22 the whole unit has to be upgraded(replaced).  
In reading through all this about duct cleaning, THE ONE preventative measure people need to realize is that a poorly installed HVAC system that is not sealed and air tight to ensure that ALL indoor air passes through a GOOD air filtration system IS THE best means of ensuring your ducts remain clean. Duct cleaning does not now and will NEVER improve an HVAC systems efficiency. Proper maintenance and installation are the key just as improper installation practices allow for dust infiltration into the duct system. I am a state licensed contractor in Texas, and unless people have their hvac system sealed and/or properly installed, duct cleaning is an absolute waste of money. My duct system is 12 years old as is as clean today as the day I installed the system with ductwork. SO before ANYONE jumps on the bandwagon of duct cleaning, get with your hvac professional FIRST.

Heaters are appliances whose purpose is to generate heat (i.e. warmth) for the building. This can be done via central heating. Such a system contains a boiler, furnace, or heat pump to heat water, steam, or air in a central location such as a furnace room in a home, or a mechanical room in a large building. The heat can be transferred by convection, conduction, or radiation.
The performance of vapor compression refrigeration cycles[26] is limited by thermodynamics. These air conditioning and heat pump devices move heat rather than convert it from one form to another, so thermal efficiencies do not appropriately describe the performance of these devices. The Coefficient-of-Performance (COP) measures performance, but this dimensionless measure has not been adopted. Instead, the Energy Efficiency Ratio (EER) has traditionally been used to characterize the performance of many HVAC systems. EER is the Energy Efficiency Ratio based on a 35 °C (95 °F) outdoor temperature. To more accurately describe the performance of air conditioning equipment over a typical cooling season a modified version of the EER, the Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio (SEER), or in Europe the ESEER, is used. SEER ratings are based on seasonal temperature averages instead of a constant 35 °C (95 °F) outdoor temperature. The current industry minimum SEER rating is 14 SEER.[27][dead link]
I'm very glad that I found another guy to come replace the circuit board and put it away from the water, fix the water leak, and also find and fix another impending failure.  All of that was for much less than HVAC Service wanted to charge for repair or replacement. The other guy did a great repair, so I'm confident it will not break down again, but if it does, I will not call HVAC Service. Don't get suckered by their Yelp Deal.
Professional cleaning involves getting the dust and debris outside, so they use outdoor ventilation equipment. It is so important that homeowners make sure the professional contractor is using good equipment then, as they could otherwise spread the spores into the home and further agitate sensitive family members. In the case of mold, a cleaner will only be able to tell you it is there, followed by needing an additional mold professional to come out and test or remove the mold. Air duct cleaning industries do not require state licensing, so make sure to check for a company with references.
Many central air conditioning systems use the furnace blower to distribute cool air through the home. If you do not have a central heating system installed, it is cost-effective to install a heating and air conditioning system at the same time. If you already have central heat, you can use the existing fans and duct system for the central air system.

Our HVAC Ductwork Installation Cost Guide is the most comprehensive guide of its type. It fully explains the purpose of ductwork and all your options. Pricing is included for all duct types and plenums/drops too. Material and installation costs are listed. Ductwork cost varies greatly by the size and type of duct plus the complexity of the installation, but you can expect to pay $10.20 to $17.25 per linear foot installed.
A BTU is the amount of energy required to heat or cool one pound of water by one degree Fahrenheit. So a 1-ton air conditioner can cool 12,000 pounds of water by one degree every hour. That’s all it means, so don’t let yourself be lost in jargon! How this affects your HVAC installation cost is that the larger your house is, the more tons will be required to heat and cool it.
Here in Atlanta we get 6 to 10 $49 coupons in the mail weekly…I have always consider them a complete scam….just had my master bathroom& bedroom and guest bath completely remodeled down to the studs…Had my 3 returns nearest the area sealed to prevent sheet rock dust to spread…it worked and I personally cleaned all 7 returns when a 5 HP , new Rigid shop Vac($99 from HD)…took one hour and I found little evidence that “I need my ducts cleaned” Had quotes from $400 to $600…I use the best air filters for my air handler and change it every 2 to 3 months…..any dust is trapped in it and I believe the Air Duct folks are all cons….
I just had my Air ducts “cleaned”. The person who came to my house works for an air duct cleaning company who uses a professional vacuum. He said the company would charge me about $900 but he can do it aside on his own and charge me half of that. However, when he came over the house, he brought the rotary brush along with his domestic vacuum cleaner that it’s hose was about 5 feet long, I ask him that the wasnt strong enough to pull dust out, and he said, it’s similar to what companies use. I was in doubt and he didnt cover the vents so im thinking all dust must have come out from every air vents. Could this vacuum have taking the debris out of the air ducts? Or how can I myself find out if the inside of the air ducts have been cleaned and no debris is sitting there? I have dust all over my house.
HRV/ERV Ventilators: These whole-house ventilators exchange air. They are ideal for homes with what is called a “tight envelope,” homes where house wrap has been applied and airgaps in the attic, around windows, doors and outlets have been sealed. Air in these homes becomes stale and polluted, so exchanging the air is important to IAQ. Heat recovery ventilators (HRV) are designed for cold climates. Energy recovery ventilators (ERV) are best for warm climates.  Your cost for an installed HRV or ERV will range from about $2,000 to more than $5,000 based on its capacity and features.

Bigger is not necessarily better when it comes to HVAC systems, and smaller isn't always more efficient. If you have too small of a system, your system will be running constantly as it tries to keep up with the temperature. If you have too large of a system, it won't run long enough to keep up with the humidity. In order to handle both temperature and humidity efficiently, an HVAC system should run for around 30 minutes at a time. If your system is staying on too long or shutting off after only around 10 minutes, you are not getting efficient performance.
I am a service technician [since '92].....and as to double filtering.....I have never recommended it. Granted.....it would be noticeably helpful if the fiberglass filters are the main ones used [which I also never recommend.....as long as system can deliver appropriate air flow with a pleated cotton filter...and any decent service tech can check the air flow for proper cfm]. Any particles small enough to pass through a pleated cotton filter are going to pass through a second filter as well....unless the second filters are so tight that the system is starving for air flow. Has anybody ever accidentally put two filters in their automatic drip coffee maker? What if cars used two fuel filters or air filters? I have told some homeowners to try using second filters at each register [the black thin filter material cut-to-fit....same type used in many window air conditioners].....but I only suggest this when I know they will still get at least 400 cfm per ton of air flow [350 absolute minimum]......as some homeowners know others who say it has helped and it gives them a peace of mind knowing they are doing something to help contribute to a solution, so it HAS to help [even though I think it falls in the "one-born-every-minute" category.....similar to duct cleaning].
Ground source, or geothermal, heat pumps are similar to ordinary heat pumps, but instead of transferring heat to or from outside air, they rely on the stable, even temperature of the earth to provide heating and air conditioning. Many regions experience seasonal temperature extremes, which would require large-capacity heating and cooling equipment to heat or cool buildings. For example, a conventional heat pump system used to heat a building in Montana's −70 °F (−57 °C) low temperature or cool a building in the highest temperature ever recorded in the US—134 °F (57 °C) in Death Valley, California, in 1913 would require a large amount of energy due to the extreme difference between inside and outside air temperatures. A few feet below the earth's surface, however, the ground remains at a relatively constant temperature. Utilizing this large source of relatively moderate temperature earth, a heating or cooling system's capacity can often be significantly reduced. Although ground temperatures vary according to latitude, at 6 feet (1.8 m) underground, temperatures generally only range from 45 to 75 °F (7 to 24 °C).
Installation: Replacement is quite easy, especially when an old refrigerant line set can be used. If the set is worn, it’s much better to pay the extra $400-$600 to replace it rather than risking it leaking later. When your AC loses refrigerant, you lose your cool air and the compressor is at risk of failing. A new installation means installing a coil in your furnace or air handler, running the line set between it and the coil in the condensing unit and adding refrigerant, if needed. Most ACs come pre-charged for 20-30 feet of line. If the line set is longer, a small amount of refrigerant is added.
I believe a $3 [sic] pleated cotton filter is all that is ever needed to keep a system running top notch. A cleaning of the blower squirrel cage and of the evaporator [indoor] coil may be needed one time if fiberglass or no filters have been previously used. The return air grille [or grilles] need vacuumed off occasionally, as they are upstream from the filter. The $3 filter should be changed every 3 months [rule of thumb]....and most of them have a little white square on the cardboard frame to write install date.....and the arrow should point into the duct [if at filter grille]....or towards the furnace [if in ductwork slot]...or towards the blower [if in blower compartment]. My two cents.....
I need a complete system replacement , before I was trying to get an evaporator coil replaced , of course the price is between $2200 an $2800 , then get told it probably will over tax my ac unit within months , so now and like everyone else what do you buy 14 ,15 16 17 seer units ,price and how do we know its reasonable  why can't there be '" a estimated price ,in the ball park, a range of prices ,so we can at least go from their .....  Now it's from 7500 to 15000. Frustrating  from the start so everybody good LUCK.   Draw a # from the hat    Unregulated  and who do you BELIEVE, just like on NCIS go with your gut feelin   

in response to this reply " should your ducts be cleaned", i have to politely correct the person who answered this. you are not using common sense. first, most of the country uses metal duct work, so for you to say what you did, is wrong. second, the duct system in a house is a circulatory system. that means it draws air into the furnace, it gets filtered, and then it is blown out into the house to heat or cool. So, obviously that air is being brought into the house from somewhere right? Yes, its coming from the outside where there are many allergens and dust particles . For you to says that about whether a duct system is sealed or not, makes no difference. The air is coming from somewhere right? It has to originate from somewhere right? Just look on top of your cieling fan. If there is a bunch of dust up there, then there is obviously a bunch in your ducts. And the duct air is being circulated every day, and every hour through your house. Its simple, dust collects everywhere in your house. Imagine if you never dusted your shelves, or tv? There would be a ton of dust after a while. Well, now think about the air in the duct system. Of course theres gonna be a ton of dust in there. For you to say that it is not benififcial to clean the ducts, is plain ignorant. 90% of the air we breathe is in our household. Wouldnt you want that air to be as dust and allergen free? I could go on for hours about the benifits of duct cleaning, but i just wanted to make a quick point that the person whose says it is not benificial to clean them, is not using common sense. Not to mention, giving the people who clean ducts for a living, a bad name. Use your head .
PickHVAC Tips: Electricity resistance heat is the most expensive heating type. You don’t want one of these unless you’re heating less than 30 days per year. The upfront cost of an electric furnace is much lower than the cost of a gas furnace. However, operating costs are two to three times higher. If winters are cold where you live, you’ll waste your upfront cost savings in just a few years of high electric bills.

It’s 11 years plus in the industry I have only had to sanitize two systems both were slab systems that were in concrete and could be cleaned with a different method than normal duct cleaning. We were able to use water to rinse out the disinfectant. Would you use a chemical on anything else you use to eat or drink with and not rinse it off? The ducts in your home should be thought of as your homes heart and lungs and breathe the same air that you do. And just like us we wouldn’t use bad chemicals in our lungs and heart.

These factors are included in a "Manual J" calculation. Contractors who make these calculations before recommending a size can take a couple of hours collecting the information and making the calculation. If your contractor doesn't do it, there are services that will do it for around $99. If you're feeling particularly on the ball, there are also free online calculators.

The next step was cleaning the cold air returns. He found a good spot to drill an 8” hole for his vacuum hose. The procedure matched the other air ducts except that when he finished at the two cold return registers he drilled several holes in the cold ducts in the basement and blasted air into them. Because of our houses age and the upgraded return system, I noticed that the main sheet metal return duct had no top but was just butted up against the ceiling in the basement. When he blasted air in, dust and crap shot out the edges along the ceiling. Once he finished that he removed the filter and “swept” out anything at the bottom of the return with his hand into the 8” hose.
I just bought a home, and the sellers clearly never had the air ducts cleaned. This is, unfortunately, typical of their neglect of the home, so I am not surprised. I was cleaning around the wooden floor registers, and I took the registers off. I found nests of some sort...all kinds of really gross stuff!! I am calling now to schedule duct cleaning for my new home. Anyway, it is very easy to check to see if you really need duct cleaning. Remove the floor registers and use a flashlight if necessary to see if there is dust or debris in the ducting. If these look bad, I'd definitely have the system cleaned. I would also do it after a construction project, after installing a new furnace, etc. I have found that once I had my previous system cleaned, it seemed to remain spotless for 3 years. So it seems that if you just change your filters on time (I have an iPhone alert set for every 3 months), the system will stay clean for years. Hope this helps!
We are all getting migraines several times a month. I have asthma but not ever as bad as it has been and my 2 year olds dr just informed me she potentially has asthma too. We all get sinus infections regularly and eczema and contact dermatitis. None of us have been this way until recently in our apartment. A roof leak with mold was repaired recently mold was sealed off not removed. We also had lead paint removed from a few window trims this year. I wasn’t here to see if they covered the vents. We had mice too. I vacuum everyday we have hardwood floors no one wears shoes past the font door and I’m getting over a cup full of dirt every time I vacuum. Dust on everything daily. White dust. It’s a 4 room apartment with 1 intake. They are filthy from what I can see when I change the filters. The filters are black after a few months. I feel bad to ask the homeowner to get the system cleaned, can’t afford to move (we live in the city & it’s expensive). I am going to try the shop vac to remove what I can. Any experienced hvac people please give your opinion. Should I just get it done and pay for it myself? We have lived here for 13 years. It’s never been cleaned since ive been here. Is it something I can do with a shop vac? Can i use a wet rag to get the powder dust on the inside of the vents off. One vent has what looks like chunks of dry wall or thick paint sitting in the vent and none of the vents screw into the wall, the screws just fall out. No one ever reinforced the area so the wall just basically crumbles. Kind of useless to spend the money on filters since the air and dust just blows out around the sides of the vents and one of the vents just falls right out of the wall when the heat is turned on. I don’t know why the owner doesn’t fix it. He’s been here to replace filters and saw the condition.
Hi guys if your not convinced yet that duct cleaning is a waste of time. I’m a HVAC business owner install heaters and air conditioners. Simple facts if you have an old system get a new return air fitted with a filter it will catch all the dirt and dust. If you still have as many do black flecks and stuff coming through it is the lining inside your ducting that has perished. So somewhere you have a hole or very old ducting. If you had rats etc its a hole somewhere. To clean, stick your vacuum in the outlet and push the hose as far as it will go this gets 99% of toys and coins fur and alike. Think about it if the object is not heavy it will come out the duct when unit is on. Service the heaters or air con units but not the ducting. I would go further to say that duct cleaning actually damages the ducting in my opinion.

I even asked if this is something they don't do, as in services on a Saturday night.  I was told by the receptionist that they do and I would just be ok calling another company if they is not  part of their services. They again assured me someone WILL call me in 10 mins.  Well, unless their definition of 10 mins is never, then they got it wrong as I am still waiting to be called 5 days later.
In addition, the black dust was found in most of the heat registers. He could rub it off on his fingers but did nothing but spray compressed air on it which didn’t make it disappear since it wasn’t loose. Also, in the register in the basement he described the black dust as being oily. The reality of that situation is that I had the AC on until the morning of the service and minutes after he snaked the hoses in my back door it started raining. The basement register had condensation from the humidity all over it. It was not oily but wet. He asked for an old towel and wiped it out. Never saw anything so black – because I never had to clean soot. That is what I have in my ducts. Soot from years of the old coal furnace.
I own an HVAC company. Dirt in your ducts stays there and hurts no one. It is like dirt on the ground outside. This industry was infiltrated by a bunch of money grubbing low lifes years ago. As a credible company, we do not clean air ducts. Some who were credible probably signed on not knowing what else to do or to try to make a buck another way. These companies, because they also do HVAC work not only rip off private homeowners, they are ripping off legitimate HVAC company's customers and the integrity of what can and should as a rule be a great service industry. Some probably have gotten into this to simply offer what competitors who were ripping off their customers were offering. Anyone cleaning ducts is in my opinion raising a big red flag that they cannot and should not be trusted. Political pressure from NADCA, advertising dollars, manufacturers and marketers of duct cleaning equipment, and intense competition for the customers is the only reason the government and adverstising companies have not run them out of business and that this cancer perpetuates itself.
What you might not know is that the brand you choose is one of the most important factors in determining a fair HVAC installation cost. So, before delving in-depth, let’s take a quick look at the average prices of a new air conditioner and matching coil by brand…keep in mind, these are the average prices (by brand) that contractors pay for your AC equipment, and it is meant to give you a rough guideline until you are closer to buying:
We installed a TRANE XL18 HVAC with a TRANE HV80 furnace 16 years ago and it still works great in Tucson, AZ.  We inquired into a replacement for the future since the R-22 refrigerant will be off market at the end of this year.  Our maintenance folks want to sell me a new system anyway (even though the TRANE works great).  We are considering the BOSCH Inverter heat pump as a lower cost option down the road.  Watch out for the tricky salesmen trying to sell beer at champagne prices though. Get estimates on whether you need to replace your current system and how much it could cost.  And if they are factory certified.
Natural ventilation is the ventilation of a building with outside air without using fans or other mechanical systems. It can be via operable windows, louvers, or trickle vents when spaces are small and the architecture permits. In more complex schemes, warm air is allowed to rise and flow out high building openings to the outside (stack effect), causing cool outside air to be drawn into low building openings. Natural ventilation schemes can use very little energy, but care must be taken to ensure comfort. In warm or humid climates, maintaining thermal comfort solely via natural ventilation might not be possible. Air conditioning systems are used, either as backups or supplements. Air-side economizers also use outside air to condition spaces, but do so using fans, ducts, dampers, and control systems to introduce and distribute cool outdoor air when appropriate.
Ground source, or geothermal, heat pumps are similar to ordinary heat pumps, but instead of transferring heat to or from outside air, they rely on the stable, even temperature of the earth to provide heating and air conditioning. Many regions experience seasonal temperature extremes, which would require large-capacity heating and cooling equipment to heat or cool buildings. For example, a conventional heat pump system used to heat a building in Montana's −70 °F (−57 °C) low temperature or cool a building in the highest temperature ever recorded in the US—134 °F (57 °C) in Death Valley, California, in 1913 would require a large amount of energy due to the extreme difference between inside and outside air temperatures. A few feet below the earth's surface, however, the ground remains at a relatively constant temperature. Utilizing this large source of relatively moderate temperature earth, a heating or cooling system's capacity can often be significantly reduced. Although ground temperatures vary according to latitude, at 6 feet (1.8 m) underground, temperatures generally only range from 45 to 75 °F (7 to 24 °C).
The final cost of this service is best determined after a professional inspection. Many air duct cleaning companies build their prices based on individual services, while others offer package pricing which includes such components as the air conditioning and furnace. The following estimates can give you an idea of prices to expect for various services.

HRV/ERV Ventilators: These whole-house ventilators exchange air. They are ideal for homes with what is called a “tight envelope,” homes where house wrap has been applied and airgaps in the attic, around windows, doors and outlets have been sealed. Air in these homes becomes stale and polluted, so exchanging the air is important to IAQ. Heat recovery ventilators (HRV) are designed for cold climates. Energy recovery ventilators (ERV) are best for warm climates.  Your cost for an installed HRV or ERV will range from about $2,000 to more than $5,000 based on its capacity and features.
in response to this reply " should your ducts be cleaned", i have to politely correct the person who answered this. you are not using common sense. first, most of the country uses metal duct work, so for you to say what you did, is wrong. second, the duct system in a house is a circulatory system. that means it draws air into the furnace, it gets filtered, and then it is blown out into the house to heat or cool. So, obviously that air is being brought into the house from somewhere right? Yes, its coming from the outside where there are many allergens and dust particles . For you to says that about whether a duct system is sealed or not, makes no difference. The air is coming from somewhere right? It has to originate from somewhere right? Just look on top of your cieling fan. If there is a bunch of dust up there, then there is obviously a bunch in your ducts. And the duct air is being circulated every day, and every hour through your house. Its simple, dust collects everywhere in your house. Imagine if you never dusted your shelves, or tv? There would be a ton of dust after a while. Well, now think about the air in the duct system. Of course theres gonna be a ton of dust in there. For you to say that it is not benififcial to clean the ducts, is plain ignorant. 90% of the air we breathe is in our household. Wouldnt you want that air to be as dust and allergen free? I could go on for hours about the benifits of duct cleaning, but i just wanted to make a quick point that the person whose says it is not benificial to clean them, is not using common sense. Not to mention, giving the people who clean ducts for a living, a bad name. Use your head .
Since most states and municipalities don’t license air duct cleaners, you need to check their professional credentials instead, such as NADCA membership. EPA recommends all duct cleaners follow NADCA standards. Member companies must keep at least one technician on staff who has passed a NADCA test. “They have to pass rigorous testing to earn the certificate, and our code of ethics is very important,” Vinick says.
Maybe I took him to literally but I am pretty sure cops wont show up to ensure that my duct gets replaced. He said it would be over 1000 dollars to replace the ductwork if that is the case. Now, I spoke to a friend who did 2 ductwork lines on his own in his attic and he said it was like 15 dollars for the plastic wirewound tubing to create new ducts. Should I cancel that appointment and just do the work on my own? I feel like I’m a chump or lazy for considering paying someone to do this work.
Installing a split system may involve making modifications to the house itself for the necessary lines to be run. The heat exchangers are also more prone to picking up debris and must be cleaned on a regular basis. While they come with protective screens over the fan, care must still be taken to ensure that nothing gets in, especially in a home with children.
I have worked cleaning HVAC in my area for almost 5 years. I always do a thorough inspection and cleaning, providing before and after photos. I have completed some jobs where I felt that it was not entirely necessary, but ultimately what the customer wanted. With that being said, I have endless photos of unspeakable horrors. Hotels are usually nasty, post construction mess is certain, pets and kids create lots off debris, bugs congregate and die, then spiders set up and die, I have even had one supply that was nearly plugged with sand!
Demonstrate visible evidence of microbial growth in your duct work. Some service providers may attempt to convince you that your air ducts are contaminated by demonstrating that the microorganisms found in your home grow on a settling plate (i.e., petri dish). This is inappropriate. Some microorganisms are always present in the air, and some growth on a settling plate is normal. As noted earlier, only an expert can positively identify a substance as biological growth and lab analysis may be required for final confirmation. Other testing methods are not reliable.
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